Tragedy if gay issue destroyed church

“For all of you couples who are thinking of tying the knot, please come and see us on Sunday 8th July 2012 at the council house Bristol for the Premiere of our Gay Wedding show. You will be guaranteed to meet genuinely Gay - Friendly exhibitors who will be delighted to offer their services to make planning your special day an enjoyable experience. Visit http://tinyurl.com/crncqqx for more details.
We need your support to make this an annual event in Bristol”

“@utopia83

"As far as church marriages are concerned, i'm slightly concerned that equalities issues are enforcing change on religion. Yes, I firmly believe in equality, but for me it's like going in to a vegetarian restaurant asking for a steak. "

Thank you, that's exactly the point I was trying to make. I'm all in favour of civil same-sex marriages but, even as a devout atheist, I can see that the State should not be dictating to the churches. If you're gay and you want to get married in church, perhaps you should look for a sect that permits it (and I bet there is one). To those who are so keen on spouting scripture, I would point out that a church isn't necessarily a mediaeval building; remember "When two or three are gathered together..."?

I have nothing but contempt, by the way, for non-believers who are determined on a church wedding because it looks nice on the wedding video. Today is the seventh anniversary of our handfasting, a truly beautiful day that we both remember with great affection.”

“surely the essence of any religion, where the person strives to be at one with their god, it is about what they do with their soul not their body.
Over time, people have moved away from groups and have become individuals. So individual rights have to be respected. in a stable society same gender marriages should be totally acceptable.”

“@utopia83

Most of the stuff to hit the headlines recently relates to the Catholic church (I might well be wrong?). It would be easy to speculate that this might be because Catholic church would like it's clergy to suppress sexual urges by not allowing it's clergy to marry?

In regards to organised religion in general suppressing bad news/things, it just goes to show that politics gets everywhere and each has it's own spin merchants. You'd think that they'd learn that this sort of suppressing activity is harmful to their respective religions but you just can't argue with faith.”

“I find this a really difficult issue. As a gay man, i'm fully supportive of all the changes that Labour fought hard to bring in under Blair and Brown. These changes including civil partnerships, better adoption rights and the removal of the farce that was section 28 have fundamentally started to shift opinion around gay issues. Still a long way to go though.

As far as church marriages are concerned, i'm slightly concerned that equalities issues are enforcing change on religion. Yes, I firmly believe in equality, but for me it's like going in to a vegetarian restaurant asking for a steak.

However, I completely and utterly agree with previous comments about people who have a faith who seem to be picking and choosing pieces of scripture as they see fit. It's obvious that many aspects of the Bible are completely out-dated in modern society. Particularly issues around slavery and women's rights. However, the Bible is clear that 'marriage' is between a man and a woman.

I would also like to suggest that the C of E needs to take a good hard look at it's history of sexual abuse by it's clergy. If the C of E is supposed to promote moral and ethical issues, then it needs to eradicate the very clear and documented wrong-doings by the very people that are supposed to be the pillars of society.

Rant over.”

“Disgusting.”

“@ kingswoody

"The CofE has a specific issue in that vicars have no legal right refuse to marry someone unless they have been divorced".

I presume you are aware that since the introduction of the GRC (gender recognition certificate) that it is now possible for anyone who is transgender and married can obtain a nullity order which means the marriage was invalid and as such they are not divorcee's

This thread is getting more ridiculous post by post lol.

So according to what you said we now can have the situation in which a man who has changed gender to a female, can have a nullity of his previous marriage and then get married in a church to another man, one could say that it was really a man marrying another man (as you don't need surgery to change your gender) so we have a homosexual man marrying another man in church and the CofE is happy with that?

But the CofE refuses to accept Gay marriage?

Really what planet do you really live on as I have defeated your argument instantly and as the law stands this can happen now”

“@ Cider_Dog

"Karenpassmore - brevity please, I just can't handle another essay from you. Reading one of your posts takes longer than reading the old testament!"

Ok Cider_Dog, seeing as you asked me nicely, I will refrain from posting so much, wonder why you don't read the old testament though if it is quicker?

Have fun without my input :)”

“@Bristol 1978

Your lack of understand at how to look at scripture is obvious. There are real debates which go on in terms of keeping the scripture in context, and understand the key points and how to apply them now. But this is not a theology course so I will not elaborate, and as much as you may not like it, everything is a matter of interpretation when you are at least 2000 years and 2000 miles away.

Suffice to say many Christians do not believe homosexuality to be right. As such they do not want marriage to be polluted to include homosexuals. By redefining marriage it will affect everyone in society, not just the gay community. Therefore if you wish to win the argument you need to persuade society that this change is a benefit and not a threat. Ministers claiming they will not listen to opponents does not aid your cause and only makes them look arrogant.

The CofE has a specific issue in that vicars have no legal right refuse to marry someone unless they have been divorced. As such there is a concern that it may grow legs in the courts as someone has already said. It is this issue which may cause the separation of church and state (dissestablishment) as the church cannot be a religious and government institution in a secular society. Like the rest of society we don't trust politicians either.

If you want to stop having such a large number of people against you, a solid argument for the change. This will need to detail any inequality which exists, not just claiming overall discrimination as difference and discrimination are not the same thing.

Another reason why the church is so against what is being proposed is that many recognise that historically in pursuing what they see as purity, they have badly treated many in the gay community. This stokes a concern that you are trying to level the score (as is also shown in many of the replies).

We have a big enough issue inside the church figuring out how to strive for greater purity in all area's of life, while also loving everyone as they are which is at the core of the gospel. These are real issues for us in all area's of life not just sexuality, its just this is one on which people have become the most polarised.

You may not like what I have said, but although there have been one or two attempts to put a argument for the change, the majority of this is trying to beat the church into submission rather than putting a positive argument forward for the change. I do hope that in years to come both sides can come to a greater understanding of one another but I fear this is a circle which cannot be squared.”

“@BCFCfinker
I'm happy to quote some more rules laid out by the New Testament that are also happily ignored...

1 Corinthians 14:34-35
Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.
And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

1 Corinthians 11:5
But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.

The point being that some Christians as you say are on the whole okay, its the hypocritical ones that like to pick and choose the bits they will take as gospel and which bits they will interpret in a more comfortable way to suit themselves that i take issue with, either its all open to interpretation or its not, you can't have it both ways to justify your own views.

And yes i completely agree there is an issue that needs to be addressed regarding religious exemption from the proposed change, they have a right to refuse to perform marriages that go against their teachings. After all you wouldn't expect a Christian couple to attempt to get married in a mosque but this proposal is simply about equal status for everyone regarding civil marriage.
My personal thoughts are that churches should be allowed to perform blessing ceremonies if requested and approved to compliment a civil marriage but the only people likely to be affected by this are gay Christians and and more liberal churches. The proposal for civil partnerships to be upgraded to civil marriages doesn't affect anyone other than the gay community.”