“Our fairness is seen as a weakness.If we didn't fight fair we could carpet bomb the lot of them.And intern anyone who we don't trust here.So i think people who don't like us should go away.”

“It always seems to be the same defensive storythe same hackneyed excuses are trotted out EVERY time "we were tortured " is always the cry.You can bet that at this moment some where, a terrorist is plotting mass destruction & when this "as yet unknown" person is caught, his storyline will be ," I was tortured"”

“when my grandparents were alive they would often say that the foreigners would rule the roost.I wonder what they would make of it now.Perhaps it is a perception.But some people seem to be more problematic than others.The EU will destroy European culture by trying to homogenize us all.Labour's version of multiculturalism is not wanted by most British and Ethnic people.It will not work.It will only cause ghettos and despair.There will always be a dominating force, may it be ethnic or mixed.Take a look at the USA or closer still places like Bradford.Depressing.People like Farooq will have a louder voice and the British people will have no say.Already our local Council has a bias against our Native people.We should be proud to be British not ashamed.When i see kids talking in Jamaican English.I think why?We have a great Language already.They should know it is cool to be a Brit.”

“@Rory.

Not sure regarding the others, but for Hitler's war, the quote that does spring to mind from "Mein Kamph" is as follows:

"...I am convinced that I am acting as the agent of our Creator. By fighting off the Jews, I am doing the Lord's work."

Other than that, Graham P and Martin appear to know their onions as far as I can tell and frankly, I couldn't have put into words anything more eloquent given the subject.”

“I don't understand what you mean by faith neutral, Rory.To say these two world wars didn't involve religion is a bit simplistic I think. I am not sure if the Nazi dictatorships reasons for the final solution were faith neutral. Or the then Popes attitude to the Third Reich was atheistic. Pretty obvious he viewed communism as the enemy(faithless) and wanted Britain to side with the Axis powers(catholic). Same applies to the thinking of the pope in the first world war. More concerned with religious power than anything else. Power.
Dictatorships are the problem yes?. The ultimate religIon. Once religions, and dictatorships become tolerant they slowly dissolve and disappear into insignifacance, or splinter up into more aggressive fragments and start again. The continuing cycle. I think its time to be honest about all this and put religions, all religions, in their place. In the history lesson at school, and left there.”

“Not at your thinking about God Martin (scratching of the head), but at the view repeated over and over that all these wars were the result of religous bigots, when the most horrific of all our wars (the 20th century ones) were not religous at all, and fought for ideologies -Communism, fascism, Capitalism etc which were either atheistic or at least faith neutral. Just get tired of hearing teh mantra repeated that if only we got rid of religion these things would stop. We have (largely) and they have got worse.”

“Rory I suppose if you want to be pedantic then every war is secular really. Religion after all is just used as an excuse.

I will just say that again. Religion is just used as an excuse.
It sums up religion pretty well I think.
People in the 1st and 2nd world wars were told that their god was on their side by the chaplains. The same god that is. What a filthy deception that was don't you think?. Hitler frequently invoked god in his public speeches. Probably more so than even our own leaders at the time.

Stalin, Pol pot, Mou etc were the gods. They dismantled the crosses,worship places, alienated the priests, monks etc, and put up statues of themselves. Still goes on in places like Burma and North Vietnam. Its the ultimate religion. It works as long as they can keep an iron grip on things, deny free speech, Keep the whole thing inside their own country etc.

19th century style?.Well rather that than 17th century style. most athiests then were dead ones.
Even nineteenth century thinking is better than bronze age thinking. Thats the kind of thinking that spawned your god, and the columnists god. You scratch your head at people that question the existence of just one god more than christians/muslims do. Just one more.
No hang on, I apologize.Three gods. I forgot the son and the holy ghost. Oh, and the devil, And some fairies, no, angels.

For thousands of years people have been trying to find a moral compass from this mire. No chance.

And you scratch your head at my thinking!!!”

“As a Christian I scratch my head a little at the 19th Century style Atheist comments below on religion being the major impediment to a massive outbreak of world peace and fellowship. Which God were they fighting about in the 1st and 2nd WWs ? In Stalin's, Mao's and Pol Pot's genocides ? Have atheists been asleep for the last 100 years which has seen the 'happy' outbreak of secular wars ???”

“I don't think the vast majority of people would have any issue with Islam if it were merely a different set of religious traditions wrapped around a different name for God. But it has to be admitted that a substantial proportion of its adherents place Islamic values above the secular and democratic role of the State and some of them are prepared to work towards an objective where their beliefs are embodied in society, rather than be prepared to modify their demands.

In the West, we had the Enlightenment which successfully shook off the (almost total) religious control of our lives. Some Christians might argue that's for the worse and lament the loss but, almost without exception, culturally they accept the precedence of the State and wouldn't even start to contemplate subverting it in favour of their religious values. Islam never experienced this seismic cultural shift. That isn't to say it's the fault of Muslims, many of whom live in the West precisely because of those values and enjoy the freedom to practise the religion of their choice without interference and with every expectation of mutual respect.

If I were a particularly religious person, I might look at Western cultural values and say we'd stripped ourselves of many of the moral guidelines born of a Christian heritage, which once formed the moral bedrock of our society. Instead, we have freedom of choice within very broad secular rules that not everyone necessarily agrees with. Even though I'm not religious, I think there is some truth in that. But the balance between religious tradition and the secular authority which allows citizens to be free to make their own choices, demands we all broadly accept democratic secular authority as essential, in order for our broader community to function as both the arbiter and guarantor of those freedoms.

I believe the problem with Islam, if I can presume to call it a problem, is the politicisation of the religion by those adherents who don't agree that the rights of the majority expressed through secular democracy should take precedence over the word of God and the rules which He mandated we live by. This is fine if those views are privately held; freedom is inherently tolerant. It's not so fine when a small minority are prepared to use violence to support this view.

Nor is this a case of Western values versus Islamic values as it's sometimes portrayed. It's more a case of those extreme expressions of Islamic values being promoted against everything else. Even fellow Muslims who don't adhere to the same politicised expression of the religion have been, and continue to be, victims. I've travelled to quite a few Muslim countries but haven't yet been to one where there isn't a discernible note of religious tension, quite often violently expressed by a small minority, and sometimes even spilling over into neighbouring states.

You're right when you say we should all live in peace and freedom. The problem is not every Muslim agrees with that position and there is only so much those outside the community can do to help. Every moderate Muslim should stand up, be counted and work actively to counter politicised extremism where it exists within their own communities. In the past this hasn't always happened. But until it does, how can we hope to live together in peace and true freedom for all?

I think in Bristol we've been lucky. We have good community relations for the most part and I believe many of our Muslim citizens do indeed work actively to counter extremism where they find it, and promote tolerance whenever they can. We should all pray to our respective Gods that it stays that way; and be thankful we enjoy the freedom to be able to do so.”

“This relates to Bristol in what way?”